Help me out here...

In high level games, lots of bad guys are running around with resistance to this, and immunity to that. So energy spells become less useful--particularly when dealing with enemy adventuring parties.

But Subdual Substitution (a no-level-adjustment metamagic feat in T&B) allows you to change the energy of a fireball into subdual damage. Literally, the spell no longer does energy (or fire) damage--it does subdual.

As far as I can tell, in high-level games, the number of bad guys who are resistant or immune to one or more types of energy is greater than the number of bad guys who are immune to subdual (i.e. constructs, undead...).

So, I'm designing this 11th level mage for a new game and I'm thinking of going subdual happy. Think about it, a normal fireball hurts most constructs and undead. The subdual fireball hurts most everyone else. So the standard prep is going to be subdual substitution fireball.

If I cast a normal fireball at that evil cleric, I run the risk that he might be resistant or immune to fire. But if I cast the subdual fireball, I know he's going to have to suck it up. And whether I burn him or pummel him with spells doesn't matter to me--as long as he goes down.

The fact that the feat is a no-level-adjustment metamagic is what's leading me to believe that it's broken. The magic system is based heavily on the idea of spells that do energy damage, and counter spells and powers that resist energy damage. Then, along comes this no-level-adjustment metamagic feat that bypasses that entire system. There are very few spells or powers that PCs and (classed) NPCs can use to resist or avoid subdual damage.

Seems broken (at least at higher level it does).

Did I miss something? Is there some ruling or revision I'm not aware of? Help me out.

A non-lethal fireball still deals fire damage. Where does it say that it loses its energy type? A non-lethal fireball is the same as a normal fireball except that it deals non-lethal damage instead of normal damage.

If you hit a red dragon with a non-lethal fireball, it will not take any damage, non-lethal or otherwise.

Spellmaster,

T&B, p. 42.
"You can modify a spell that uses energy to deal damage to deal subdual damage instead"
[Snip]
"You can modify a spell with the chosen designator to inflict subdual damage instead of energy damage."
[Snip]
"For example, the subdual fireball spell works in the usual way, but the subdual fireball deals subdual damage instead of fire damage."

"Instead" appears three times in the T&B description. That sounds pretty clear to me.

The description never mentions "non-lethal" anything.

But it does mention:
Subdual damage instead of fire damage; and
Subdual damage instead of energy damage.

Because the spell no longer deals energy/fire damage, endure/resist elements should not protect you. Right?

Non-Lethal is the equivalent of 3.0 Subdual. When the editions changed they changed Subdual into Nonlethal. Same concept, new name.

Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level.
When a spell or a magical power cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.
So if you pound the BBEG with a subdual damaging spell for 50 damage and your archer friend sticks regular (lethal) arrows into him, also for 50 damage, a signle healing effect that heals 50 damage would restore BBEG to full health. And if you both used normal lethal damage, he would have 50 points of damage left after the healing.
As you can see, subdual fireballs are about the worst thing you can use against an evil cleric ;).

Get Sonic Sub as it's generally better.

-EE

As i recall, it doesn't change the spells descriptor. Which means Fireball[Fire] remains [Fire] even if subdual subsituted.

For the exact quote, i'll have to check

If they're using this spell to overcome the energy resistance of creatures (presumably to nickle and dime them to death with HP damage), I say good for them.

It's not really all that overpowering, compared to the multitude of other spells they could cast.

The example given in the description says a Subdual Fireball works like a normal fireball, but it does subdual damage instead of fire damage. So I would read that as changing the type of damage.

If your players are abusing Subdual Substitution, throw some illusion disguised undead or constructs at them. Or give an enemy cleric a spell like Favor of Ilmater (from Magic of Faerun) which make the recipient immune to subdual damage, amongst other things. Or throw both of of the above at them in the same encounter. :D

As a DM, I would be THRILLED if players started using Subdual Substitution to take prisoners on occassion. It's hard for me to drop information from the bad guys when they get blown to bits!

As a player, I take it all the time ... both from the mercy standpoint above, and the 'friendly fire isn't so bad' angle. I would want an official response from The Sage (not custserv!) on whether or not Subdual Sub actually removes the energy descriptor, though. Yes, it sounds like it does, but that's pretty handy.

It's been said before, but getting energy substitution (sonic) is about the same and doesn't have the limitations subdual damage has.

Yes, Willie, but there are times when you don't *want* to be dealing out lethal damage. :)

As a player, I would be in favor of the "it bypasses energy resistance" side. As a GM, I would say it is still a fire spell. Energy Substitution makes a point of saying that an cold-substituted fireball still burns things (i.e. doesn't freeze them), so I would say a subdual-substituted fireball also still burns things - just not as intensely perhaps.

A compromise, though, would be to say that the energy damage is replaced with subdual damage, but note that the [Fire] descriptor remains. Red Dragons and Fire Elementals (immune to spells with the [Fire] descriptor) are immune to subdual-substituted fireball, but half-fiends with Fire Resistance 20 don't get any benefit against them. And ice elementals that fail their save ([Cold] subtype) take double damage.

Originally posted by Willie the Duck
It's been said before, but getting energy substitution (sonic) is about the same and doesn't have the limitations subdual damage has.

In fact, I think from a pure must-drop-the-enemy standpoint that Sonic still comes out a ways ahead. There are many more things immune to subdual damage than are immune to sonic damage, and sonic damage can actually damage objects (without reduction like other energy types.)

Originally posted by Thelon Fairblade
As a player, I would be in favor of the "it bypasses energy resistance" side. As a GM, I would say it is still a fire spell. Energy Substitution makes a point of saying that an cold-substituted fireball still burns things (i.e. doesn't freeze them), so I would say a subdual-substituted fireball also still burns things - just not as intensely perhaps.


Rant warning:

And THAT is why I never liked the substitution feats.

A cold-substituted fireball is just a big ball of flame that bypasses fire protection. Bleh. A metagaming solution. You want a Ice-ball? Learn a Ice-ball spell. Then the secondary effects are detailed in the spell description.

What's a Cold-ball look like? Is a subdual fireball just a cloud of warm gas? Gah.

Well, that rant is over. I feel better now.

It seems pretty clear that a Subdual subbed fireball would no longer deal fire type damage. If it was intended to still deal fire damage, then the author of T&B worded that as poorly as can be.

Generally, Sonic Sub is better, unless you're in the business of capturing criminals or crazy people